The Conversation: Gutter Magazine Interviews Gutter Magazine
For this issue we’ve decided to do things differently and have a conversation within the team about the shape of Gutter as a magazine. Managing Editor, Kate MacLeary is joined by co-editors Henry Bell and Laura Waddell and our designer and typesetter, Ryan Vance as we talk about all things Gutter, explore print culture and physicality, and discuss what the future of the literary landscape might look like.
KATE MACLEARY: So we’re all here. It’s happening! We’ve started the intro to the mag pretty bold in the editorial, asking, ‘why do we matter’—do you think we’re having an existential crisis?
LAURA WADDELL: Well, who isn’t having an existential crisis just now? I think everyone’s going through a period of change. I don’t think we’re the only literary entity that’s going through a period of change just now. And we do of course have to go through change regularly but it’s been precipitated a bit by the pandemic—everyone is still fighting with their bearings as to what the literary culture looks like offline again. So, in that sense, yes!
RYAN VANCE: I think we had only just found our footing and got into a rhythm when the pandemic hit after bouncing back from the previous crisis that was Freight. I don’t know if we edit that out in the interview or not (cue laughter from team). But we had only found our footing and we had to just completely rethink how we did everything, as did everyone else... So, I don’t know if it’s an existential crisis, but certainly bouncing from crisis to crisis! It’s always a fun challenge.
KM: Yeah, crisis management. Right?
HENRY BELL: But I think the ‘why do we matter’ of it coming out of that, kind of felt really apparent to me in both the pandemic and lockdowns and now re-establishing, as you say, an offline literary culture in Scotland and thinking about what that looks like. Because I think one of the things, one of the reasons I think Gutter matters is I think it’s almost like the journal of record, for what’s going on creatively and psychologically and subconsciously for everyone. I feel like you get this snapshot of what is happening in Scotland and in the world through poetry and prose and things like the climate crisis or the Scottish Independence debate or the pandemic get captured in quite an abstract and subtle way, but also in a real and meaningful way I think in the magazines we make through those periods. And again, I feel now that we’re getting back to in-person events, there’s an urgency to saying what that culture should look like and how it should be and who should be at the table and who should be included that maybe was included for the first time during the pandemic and should stay involved.
KM: Definitely. I think as well talking about the literary landscape, obviously, there’s so many fresh zines and magazines coming out and of course there’s space for everybody, but I’d like to think we don’t take our place as a permanent fixture in the Scottish literary scene for granted. How do you guys feel about that? Us being this stalwart I guess, that we’re quite embedded and rooted into the scene?
LW: This is something that we talked a bit about when we had our twentieth issue, I think, because we had to come to terms with not being the young, scrappy, upstart of a mag anymore and we have entered this new legacy phase of Gutter where we’ve all been doing this for a while now and we are starting to try to bring new people in, try to train new people up in editorial skills. So, it’s a development for us, but I think it’s one that we’ve responded to with a sense of responsibility towards what we’re giving back to younger people or people who are just coming up in the literary scene. And it’s true what you say—we don’t want to take anything for granted—it’s important that we stay involved in a way that’s just not sitting back and letting things happen. We are trying to work with new editors and pass along some of those skills, skills that are hard to come by sometimes.
RV: That’s kind of how I feel as well. But I also feel like it’s snuck up on us. Like I don’t feel like any of us got involved into working with and for Gutter expecting to be in a position where the magazine was such a recognized name and entity. I mean, it’s great that we’ve ended up there, and knowing that I’ve been part of that is—not to flatter the ego—but it’s nice, it’s great knowing you’ve been a part of something like that. But I think we got there through longevity as opposed to that being the goal. So, I think the kind of ‘legacy era’ has snuck up on us, and that poses its own interesting challenges because if you don’t expect to be around for a long time then you don’t know when you’ve sort of hit certain goalposts. And we’re reckoning with that now and kind of thinking where does that put us in terms of responsibilities to everyone who’s been involved in the magazine from day one. So, I think that’s interesting.
KM: No, definitely. And I mean I think it’s clear that we’re taking a moment to reflect on that and think about how we can adapt and evolve moving forward, rather than just kind of staying in one place. I guess, what if we flip that to the writing? Because with Gutter I’d like to think that we always try to strike the right balance between fresh, new voices and established talent. But that’s obviously something that’s quite a tricky balance to achieve, I would say. Do you think we’re doing enough to encourage new writing?
HB: Yeah, I think one of the best things we’ve done for that lately kind of wasn’t intentional—in that it wasn’t the intended outcome—but I think that working with the Scottish Black People, People of Colour Writers’ Network (SBWN) in the first place, and the way in which that opened up who was submitting to the magazine and who was hearing about the magazine started with that, but then the programme of having Guest Readers—that being to some extent about representation and thinking about the culture of the magazine—also meant that we were bringing in substantially younger people, quite regularly. And I’ve definitely found interesting in terms of that it increased who submitted in different ways, because the word got out in different ways but also the work those people wanted to shine a light on often wasn’t necessarily what I would have been thinking to highlight. So, it was not the original point of it, but I think an outcome which makes me think how important it is to keep bringing people in from different scenes and backgrounds and experiences and of different ages into the selection process, so that ultimately what we get is as exciting as possible.
LW: Yeah. I would add that, although we know there are people who buy the magazine who have come across it in one way or another, a lot of people are connected to the literary scene in Scotland in some way, and we’ve found it really rewarding to nourish our relationships with other literary bodies, so the SBWN is one example of that, but there are quite a few others. And you know, it has been so rewarding for the reasons that it does take us into expected avenues, it does question what we expect the magazine to be, when we seek out work from people who haven’t previously submitted. It’s just really beautiful to see those networks really flowering and growing in different directions because we don’t want the magazine to be set in its ways, we don’t want it to be clique-ish, we do want to play our role in developing talent. So, I’m very proud of, for example, some of the people who have been published in a few issues over their career, and then have gone on to create some really wonderful prose debuts. But as well as that development, it has been great to see just fresh submissions. I think for anyone who ever considers submitting but doesn’t feel that they know any of the team, or doesn’t feel that it’s for them... I would hope that people aren’t put off...
KM: I think it’s interesting that you guys have both mentioned the Scottish BPOC Writers Network. I think you’re right definitely that Issue 21, and bringing in Guest Editors, and just working with another organisation was a really pivotal moment for us. And I think it’s because since that point we’ve gone on to introduce Guest Readers and to bring in people doing editorships and readerships with the team. I think that’s something that’s challenged us as a team in a really positive way, that not only are we kind of introducing our work to wider networks, but we’re also kind of learning to, you know, just not to be the core team. To be adaptable to working with other people, bringing other people in. And I guess also we’ve changed as a team by bringing in Shehzar in the last 18 months, which has changed us as a team too, I think in a really positive way.
LW: Absolutely. Shehzar has been a really fantastic addition to the team and has brought so much already in his time. For example, the Indian Subcontinent Showcase in the last issue.
KM: Yeah, because I think it’s an interesting thing that we’ve all come together very organically. I suppose we always look at ourselves and our make up as a (largely white) team, but actually when we founded as a cooperative and we took on Gutter in 2017, that was very much off the back of that we had all worked on Gutter or were somehow linked to the mag in one way or another. And although that does speak to a bigger conversation about representation, I think it’s just a nice thing that we kind of did come together organically but we’ve been able to progress beyond that. We’ve come such a long way I think since then.
LW: Yeah I think as well because we are quite a close team and we’ve all known each other for quite a while, I think it is important that we continue working with other literary entities outside of ourselves for that reason. So, I think that naturally we’ve gravitated towards partnerships a lot. Because we don’t want to look inwards, we don’t want the magazine to just be a reflection of the people who’ve been there for a decade, as some of us have been. But it’s a labour of love. It has been for a long time, so we can talk about development, and all of those things, but for a long time it’s been held together by just the passion of people who didn’t want to see the magazine die.
KM: I agree with that and I think we’re now in a really good place. I think it’s interesting to now be talking about us as like a fixture, and do we take it for granted, and how do we feel about that, because it kind of shows just how far we’ve come in that respect. But looking to the future what would you guys hope—aside from obviously the magazine going on and existing—what do you see as the future for Gutter?
HB: I’ve been really excited by the small change we made at Issue 20 to bring in more non-fiction writing and I think something I’d like to see happen more is more blurring and changing of form and types of writing we publish. I think that’s kind of been happening slowly over time, but I feel like there’s a really exciting scene in Scotland at the moment of art writing and things that blur the lines between poetry and memoir and fiction. And yeah, I’m just excited to see more different writing come in. And I also think—and this connects a bit about what you’re saying about a legacy thing—but so much of the work I’m excited about in Scotland—but in the West of Scotland particularly—is quite ephemeral. Things that are like short runs and zines and things that happen quite briefly. And I think that Gutter being able to be a place where some of that is collected, means that when exciting things are encountered we can have the budget to commission some more work from those people and bring it to a wider audience. So, that kind of stuff, for me.
RV: On a kind of smaller scale, I’m looking forward to Issue 30, just because it’ll be 10 issues of the current design. I really like the current design but I’m looking forward to shifting, I’m looking forward to changing it up a bit. Just because I think part of not taking anything in Gutter for granted, also extends to kind of keeping ourselves on our toes. We don’t want to—in any aspect—I think, consider it routine. Because I think for arts organisations, and literary magazines in particular, once you think you know what to expect from each issue, I think you start sliding into that realm of only publishing what you think the world wants, as opposed to being open to what you’re being given. So, I’m looking forward to Issue 30 and changing up the design a bit, and seeing if that changes what we get sent. Because the image of the magazine could change what we get sent, depending how we design it. It’s not as big picture as wondering what the shape of things to come in the entire literary scene of Scotland is like, but I’m looking forward to it.
KM: Amazing. And just picking up on what you’re saying about the shape of things to come, Print culture is obviously really significant in what we do. Do you have any thoughts on the physicality of Gutter?
LW: We’ve been talking about ephemera and we’re also conscious of how to improve our digital accessibility, but at heart we’re a print magazine and part of a print culture. And that can be difficult financially, it can be difficult to distribute. A physical magazine comes with its own challenges, but I think we have maintained our print version because it speaks to how we wish the magazine to be consumed by the reader. We do want people to access online, but for a lot of us the joy, the moment of receiving the magazine twice a year, sitting with it, taking it in, taking our time with it. I think we have increasingly looked to non-fiction that is thoughtful, that is long form, that isn’t based on the rapid response of the online world. And that to me is quite important that we exist as a magazine that’s not led by social media or led by influences from the digital world but that still maintains its presence outside of that as well.
KM: I think that’s a really good point too. Because I think in some of the ways that we look at the magazine and that we look at ourselves, we’re always thinking you know ‘why couldn’t we do this’ and actually there are certain barriers that we have because the magazine is 168 pages long, so in order to produce that size of physical magazine we have certain limitations, both financially and on ourselves, but ultimately it’s such a beautiful object. And I agree, Laura, just to be able to receive that in the post and to sit with it and admire it. And Ryan’s really striking cover designs... it is something hopefully to collect, that can sit on your bookshelf and just be a beautiful thing. And I think that’s why I do it, and I’m sure we would agree that that’s a lot of the reason, just to make this beautiful object and to put it out into the world and to share peoples’ writing. I’m always amazed by the standard of the work that we get. And we’re able to host that and facilitate that.
RV: Also, Laura’s point about not being led by short form, attention grabbing, online culture. There’s not a lot of places online where you can go to read long form, or semi-long form fiction that feels comfortable. I feel that once you get past maybe 1000 words, reading online is quite tiring whereas I feel that reading a book, a physical object, it’s not tiring. So, I think that it’s important to provide a space for fiction in particular that falls into that slightly longer category, that increasingly there’s not that much room for because other publications maybe have less space to provide or online maybe there’s not that kind of reading culture? So, I think that’s quite important, is keeping a space for longer pieces.
HB: Yeah, similarly, I think the other thing about the physicality that’s really important is the kind of vote of confidence in the writing that gives. What that means for the work that’s in Gutter and for the writers that have contributed. Like I think having your work in print, whether it’s the first time you’ve ever had anything in print or whether it’s the hundredth time, it still has a power and an excitement and feels like a vote of confidence, like people committing to what you’re making, and committing to getting that out there in a way that, yeah, online culture is much more disposable, much more... you can put it out as much as you want, you can do whatever, then it kind of disappears into the ether. And I suppose a book that, as you say, has 168 pages, the work has to fight to get into it and it has to be really, really fought for by one of the editors. And I think that’s really important. It’s impossible to say what Gutter might look like in five or ten years in terms of what the content might be, or the design might be, or who might be even making it, but what I’d like to see is that it still exists as a 168 page royal-format book in the world that does the things books can do. Which is, like you say Ryan, to be a genuinely comfortable and engaging and personal experience and also kind of travel and end up in different people’s hands.
RV: Also, on the subject of fighting for pieces in the magazine, when it comes down to the wire and you’re trying to figure out which are the pieces you want to go in—which also to a certain extent involves decisions on which pieces that don’t go in, that’s tough. But when you get someone coming back to you and saying, ‘this is my first time getting published in print’, they’re always so excited and so enthusiastic about seeing their piece find a space in somewhere that they know has limitations on what can get in, and that feeling of like opening a door for someone, that previously never had the door opened for them, or being the first one to say ‘come in, join us’, it’s one of the best parts of putting this magazine together is when you get to do that for someone and they are genuinely thrilled. That’s not something that you get with online media as much, just because there is so much space available online to put stuff on there. So, I think the physicality again, it does make it special. Not just to us, but also to anyone who gets involved in it. And it does come with hard decisions and sacrifices, but at the same time a lot of joy.
KM: I was going to say a similar thing, that I think we’re all so close to it, because we’re working away behind the scenes, but in terms of people being published for the first time and being really happy about it... people always do seem to be genuinely delighted to be published in Gutter. From talking to people about their experiences, it’s experienced as a real accolade, a real achievement to have been published in Gutter specifically. And I guess every time we have an event, or if I’m out at some sort of literary do and someone comes up to me and says ‘Oh, Gutter, amazing’ and either ‘I was published’ or ‘I would love to be published in Gutter’, that always makes me stop and think ‘wow’, just that people would hold us at that kind of standard. It really makes what we do feel worthwhile. You never want to be a gatekeeper—it’s something as a team we’ve discussed a lot—but I’d like to think our role is a really positive one, that we’re able to nurture and publish new talent and then watch people go on to bigger things.
LW: That’s the duality of being an editor, is that you hold in your hands the responsibility of being able to bestow upon a writer encouragement, development, validation in their early career but you also are saying no a lot of the time.
KM: Definitely, but I also think being able to say yes is such a privilege. And when you see the talent of these writers, I just think really we’re so lucky to have people wanting to submit work to us, and long may that continue!
HB: Following on about talking about that physical print culture thing, is a thing that I find very exciting and that I feel very lucky to have ended up making a magazine, and making a magazine with my friends, is that I love the submissions, and the proofing and all the actual nuts and bolts of pulling a magazine together. And like sitting round a table, or sitting in someone’s front room talking about fonts or punctuation or exactly how speech marks should be used in a story, is actually genuinely really fun to me and I like that, whilst we obviously do it in a professional way, we also do it with a drink and some chat, and that’s a thing that I also look forward to a lot is the bits of time when we’re together as a team, whether that’s reading submissions together, or the meeting where you argue and horse-trade about what goes in the magazine. Getting to do that with people that I want to spend time with and want to hear their thoughts, and want to find out what we agree and disagree on about how it should look is... yeah, that’s the hook for me in doing it I think.
KM: That’s so lovely. What about you guys... favourite things about working on Gutter?
LW: This sounds kind of despondent, but it ends happily... I’ve felt very melancholy about the state of community in the Scottish arts over the last few years and the noise and volume of online discussion is a massive part of that. And I feel fatigued quite often by working on the commercial side of things, with books and just the rapid news cycle and all of that... but Gutter doesn’t make me feel that way. When I spend time with Gutter and with the team there’s something in me, there’s a little flame that keeps the spirit of hope alive for me. It keeps alive my love of literature, my love of community, of coming together to—as Henry said—make a magazine with my friends. And that for me is a really important part of why I’m here, why I’m part of the team. It’s nourishing, not destructive. When so much else in life is destructive.
RV: I guess I agree, I like the connections, all of the connections that come into and through Gutter. I like that we get to be stepping stones for writers, I like that the reputation it has as somewhere that is quite open and progressive and welcoming. And I’ve enjoyed seeing that progress and grow and I know there’s still a lot of work to be done, but it just cheers me that something like Gutter does and can exist in the Scottish literary scene and show signs of longevity. And longevity even beyond the current team or the current scene in Scotland. There’s not one particular part of the mag that I could pick as my favourite. I just cherish Gutter—which sounds so daft—but holistically, I cherish the thing as a whole, everyone who has been part of it, and the people I’ve met through it.
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